Curse

scottyboysn · Apr 22, 2007, 03:00 AM // 03:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hockster

Where does it say Hard Mode is mandatory?

Where does it say that ANYTHING in GW is mandatory? It doesn't. The fact is that hard mode is available, and most players will want to play it. Players are even more spread out now - I agree 100% with OP. Don't get me wrong, I love hard mode and everything in this update. I just agree finding a well balanced human party is going to be difficult. What about a full hero party option for hard mode only?

NJudson · Apr 22, 2007, 03:00 AM // 03:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baroness Scarlett

Really, who cares about hard mode...

Well, in case you haven't read too many threads on the forum there is an awful lot of people who have been interested in the Hard Mode. For a lot of people it's a new challenge. Granted, there hasn't been new content and items added that you apparently only seem to care about, but for many folks it's somewhat of a revitalization of the game which has become a bit stale to them.

So, back to the original topic of the thread I have to agree from my experience so far. I haven't seen hardly anyone looking to do Hard Mode in the few places in Ascalon that I've played. Consequently, I have had little luck using henchman in these areas. Especially since the party size is limited to just four.

I like the idea of the global Hard Mode party search, but considering about .000023% of the Guild Wars population actually uses that search tool for forming parties then it might not work too well.

Navaros · Apr 22, 2007, 03:32 AM // 03:32

Are there enough players?

In my view the answer to that is yes - but you will actually never find them or be able to party with them, so them existing is a moot point.

Lumping Hard Mode districts together with Normal Mode districts severely limits the ability to find other players capable of playing in Hard Mode properly. Most Hard Mode players will see no one else is there to do Hard Mode with them, so they leave the town. Then when the other Hard Mode players come, the cycle repeats.

What should have happened was a Protector req. (yes there would be complainers about this but oh well, if they don't wanna earn Protector which is very easy to do, that's not anyone else's problem) to enter Hard Mode, and then separate the districts between Hard Mode and Normal Mode. That would have ensure that Hard Mode players are easily found, and ones who are completely incompetent at playing the game are (such players can be found in any district of the game since there are no restrictions on who can gain entrance) are for the most part filtered out already by the Protector req.

Mr_Cynical · Apr 22, 2007, 03:38 AM // 03:38

No. Parties are hard enough to find at the moment - the novelty has already worn off. It's sad that the biggest expansion to PvE in ages could end up (through inability to use it beyond this weekend) doing nothing more than exposing how deeply flawed the NPC AI actually is.

Previously the henchmen got away with it because all they had to do was follow the human's orders to concentrate damage on one target - the same principle that humans relying on AI to beat superior numbers have used in every game since Command and Conquer.

We've had warning signs before - Prince Rurik being astonishingly foolish in the early Prophecies missions, more recently hero monks seeming remarkably reluctant to heal NPCs such as Togo. Unfortunately (not knowing about the difficulty of programming such things) I don't know if Anet will have the time to produce a workable hench/hero AI even as part of GW:EN (or whether it will be cost-effective for them to bother), but there are two things which a short time with hard mode has made clear:

Hard mode will not work if it relies on PUGs - already these are disappearing
The current henchman/hero AI is inadequate to cope with hard mode

Str0b0 · Apr 22, 2007, 03:51 AM // 03:51

While I have yet to attempt the elite content or the endgame missions I have yet to find hardmode all that more difficult. I mean sure the enemies are higher level but that's about it. It's virtually the same AI we have been dealing with. They just dumbed it down for normal mode and left it the same for hard mode and then upped monster levels. I'm not complaining by any means. My point is that I don't think numbers will be a problem since most of the content can still be hero/henched. So really only the elite and end game content will require players to fill out the team. That's my observation thus far though and I am used to running hero/hench 90% of the time.

lyra_song · Apr 22, 2007, 04:07 AM // 04:07

I think, we as a community can solve this issue ourselves without Anet.

This is merely a matter of organizing.

I propose we set up a thread here on guru where we can do weekly meetings to do specific hardmode missions with people signing up to cover the harder missions with real people

Silly Warrior · Apr 22, 2007, 05:45 AM // 05:45

As an answer to Zinger's question, no, there aren't enough of us (being guild wars players all in general) to play both Hard Mode and normal, AND have people experienced enough to do the job. So yes, like Lyra said, we must take this problem into our own hands.

And I agree 100% with Lyra, a Hard Mode discussion and group organizing sub-thread would be a great idea, I'll suggest it to Inde...in the mods super secret forum chatting area.....

Great idea Lyra, really.

Dr Strangelove · Apr 22, 2007, 05:47 AM // 05:47

It's really rough doing hard mode with heroes, especially when you snare a pile of charr and dunkoro decides to stand right in front of them and let them rage in his face. Hero and hench AI seems to have really gone down the toilet in the last update. Either that, or I just notice it more that I require more complex operations (Dammit Koss, I don't have time to find you a new target, I'm cycling bsurge, go find your own target and stop standing around)

There are plenty of players in the outposts spamming, the issue is that solid teams for hard mode need A)specific professions and B)Competent players

That being said, when I see a "stance tank" LFG HM, I pretty much decide I'd rather have my crippling slash Koss who will actually do something. Guildies are almost a necessity.

On that note, (WARNING: SHAMELESS SELF PLUG APPROACHING) I'd like to mention that I'm looking for a guild interested in organized play in hard mode, with light PvP on the side. PM me, IGN is over there on the left.

Mysterial · Apr 22, 2007, 06:05 AM // 06:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

It's really rough doing hard mode with heroes, especially when you snare a pile of charr and dunkoro decides to stand right in front of them and let them rage in his face. Hero and hench AI seems to have really gone down the toilet in the last update. Either that, or I just notice it more that I require more complex operations (Dammit Koss, I don't have time to find you a new target, I'm cycling bsurge, go find your own target and stop standing around)

I'm fairly certain that heroes and henchmen are using Normal Mode AI regardless of mode selected. As far as I can tell, all of their kiting and AoE avoidance has been completely turned off.

Kotetsu Rain · Apr 22, 2007, 06:08 AM // 06:08

Some missions should seem easy enough to do with hero/henches BUT it's definitly not the case. I've tried Jokunar Diggins at least 12 times in HM and have had no luck whatsoever with hero's and henches. Though when I set out to PUG no one seems to be out there...

Definitly not enough

tweedledumb · Apr 22, 2007, 06:18 AM // 06:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kotetsu Rain

Some missions should seem easy enough to do with hero/henches BUT it's definitly not the case. I've tried Jokunar Diggins at least 12 times in HM and have had no luck whatsoever with hero's and henches. Though when I set out to PUG no one seems to be out there...

Definitly not enough

Hmmm.. Maybe if they un-nerfed some of those skills they jerked for PvP we would be able to work through the hero AI flaws...

Series · Apr 22, 2007, 06:24 AM // 06:24

Global hard mode search would just be amazing. Since you don't have to do the missions or vanquishing in any order, you can just see where the people are and join up!

dwc89 · Apr 22, 2007, 07:10 AM // 07:10

Problem already came up in guild tonight. Someone was asking for help getting through the last 2 missions in NF, one person asked if it was in Hard Mode - no it wasn't.

The response to it not being in HM was, " Normal Mode is a waste of time"
And this in a guild that is pretty good at stepping up to lend a hand.
We got them through the missions, a few of us stepped. Though it wasn't too bad, the players that needed through are not old hats at GW and doing those missions in HM would have been a nightmare with them.

Other things regarding heroes & hench have been pretty much covered. Personally I think they should fix the AI for those - vanquisher titles will be tougher to get than missions. Remember the Grenth quests , took forever and a day to get a group.

Anyway, I like HM so far. Will have to see how things go.

hellshound38 · Apr 25, 2007, 09:00 AM // 09:00

I got Guardian of Elona!!
2 to go! lol

Nekretaal · Apr 25, 2007, 02:20 PM // 14:20

I dont think there are enough people.

I have had to hench/hero everything... when I would really love to have at least two humans in my groups other than myself (1 to control the melee & melee heroes, 1 to the defensive heroes and monks, and one to control the offensive casters and ranger).

Keithark · Apr 25, 2007, 03:34 PM // 15:34

I have prot titles, all hero's runed up, all max gear, etc. I am online for 2-3 hrs from 1730 - ?? mon-thurs and random on weekends. I would like to get in group of exp'd players to do missions in HM. From the ones I have done so far the only tips I have is you need a live elly with wards for your hero/hench since they don't kite. You need a mm and ss, 2-3 monk hero's or 2 live monks (would be great to have a live bonder) depending on mission.. I am doing this on my tank and from what I have seen so is everyone else so that has been my problem with getting groups...no monks or casters in towns looking for groups. I am only doing this in elona then will go to factions..not sure it I even want to try tyria as I don't care for most of the missions there and there are about 2 times as many of them.

Mr_Cynical · Apr 25, 2007, 03:45 PM // 15:45

No of course there aren't. There aren't even enough players in most places (ie outside the 'hubs' like Kaineng, Droks, LA etc.) to PUG in normal mode (which everyone has access to) so it really escapes me why Anet made such a significant part of the game depend on PUGs. Repeat after me, Anet, This game does not have the player numbers of WoW and therefore cannot support WoW-like PUG-reliant features.

XvArchonvX · Apr 25, 2007, 07:03 PM // 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keithark

From the ones I have done so far the only tips I have is you need a live elly with wards for your hero/hench since they don't kite.

I've found that monk heroes tend to kite just enough to get outside any set wards and get pinned against a wall or just stop in their tracks and heal other people while they get whaled on. Quite dissapointing really.

Ritualistic Spankin · Apr 25, 2007, 07:47 PM // 19:47

Like so many other people have stated, I also think that there just aren't enough people to get a good group going for Hard Mode, or from another perspective, sure there are plenty of people, but we lack the means to effectively get ahold of and communicate with them to form parties.

Separate districts would be nice, however a global Hard Mode search would be "off da heezie." I am working dilligently on vanquishing Tyria with my Rit(since Tyria is my one true love) and before I head out I always ask in local chat if anyone wants to join me....never get any responses. It hurts, and quite frankly causes me to lose some motivation to go vanquish in the hopes that if I don't vanquish that zone and try this town/outpost again later, someone will be here that wants to work on it with me.

Having to use hero's/henchies is not a cakewalk in every zone, especially since Dunkers and Talcum are about as intelligent as a sack of rocks after this update. Plus I don't know how others feel, but I do enjoy carrying conversation while vanquishing, call be crazy but it is somewhat comforting to know there is actually someone with a pulse actually helping me. It makes it more enjoyable.

Who knows, maybe my Ritualist smells or something in the outpost, my digi-BO could be cause of a lack of a group, meh, things may get better with future updates. I am also a big supporter of making continent specific threads to 'pitch' our characters for group for hard mode, maybe one for missions, and one for vanquishing.

-Aaron

Ensign · Apr 25, 2007, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr_Cynical

This game does not have the player numbers of WoW and therefore cannot support WoW-like PUG-reliant features.

Guild Wars certainly does have more players online at any given time than any particular WoW server. The difference is that GW players are more spread out (especially these days, with Hard Mode spreading out GW players even more while WoW is more concentrated with Outland), and communication is much weaker in GW (limited to the individual outpost in GW, players in instances cannot be talked to, while WoW channels are much more far reaching.)

Basically there are more players in GW than on your WoW server, but you can communicate with a lot less people at a time in GW, so it effectively feels smaller. Good communication tools would solve this problem.

Of course, without support to the player market, any expanded communication system is going to turn into the de-facto trading system.

Peace,
-CxE